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Sabs

DeletedUser120

Guest
what in the sam hill are you thinking?...this need to be changed quick...Spys go back to full price and for a sab attack all should have to send all 5...it could be a great game play but you have all fighting with just sabs now ...your making a good game for Noobs only? iv supported TW for going on 8yrs but who thinks of this as and upgrade plus?...very very displeased customer
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I assume he is complaining about the lowered cost and reduced build time for spies with the 'balancing' update. while not as adamant about the issue as graywolf, i do agree. The players asked for sabos to be nerfed a long time ago and Innogames responded by making them less successful. This 'balance' update only empowers sabos much much much more than they ever have been. 1/3 the cost and 1/4 the build time? BOOOOO. sabos are only effective for players that have tons of sabo villages. anyone with enough villages to effectively use sabos should be fighting with their nukes and nobles, not spies. where was the impetus for these changes? I never heard these changes requested. Players want cheaper coins/nobles, more offensive power, and better account management. nobody cared about making sabos stronger again :S
 

DeletedUser657

Guest
Even before the update sabs are horrible. This is the absolute worst part of the game. It can be a game breaker. Even homeguard doesn't stop enough of the sabs to make a difference. Now the building times of the church, walls etc really made sabs powerful. These need to change. Even making it so that if you don't have a church in the province of where you are sending sabs to then it should not be successful with the defender having homeguard up from a lvl 15 tavern.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
THe old times where bad though,but i do agree with the new times, all 5spies should be needed for sabos, or the spy system needs to be looked at cuz i still getting spied easily enough though i have 5 spies defending + tribe skill(and i couldt see who spied like WTF?)
 

Tokano

Not a Mod
Fun Fact: Today is the 500th Day anniversary of people complaining about the Sabotage mechanic.

The problem with the Sabotage mechanic is that it should never have been implemented in the first place. It was broken as hell from the beginning and there is no fantastic solution that would make everyone happy.

They also don't cater to just the US market. They have to take feedback from ALL of the markets. Some markets really enjoy the sabotage mechanics - some worlds on other markets have tribes that told their members to only build Sabotage HoO and offense in lieu of defense because of the way Sabo's work. This is in contrast with other markets like .EN; where there are entire worlds where tribes made pacts to never use the Sabotage mechanic and if any single player used it, they would be dismissed from their tribe and a free-for-all would ensue over their villages.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I think it was planned as a countermeasure to the church, away to fight if u cant get a foothold, honestly i stand to believe the issue can be fixed if the scout battle system was heavily improved upon, but as of right now it sucks
 

DeletedUser1260

Guest
Welcome back Takano to the conversations, nice to see you again.
Guys there is a general consensus that sabotage has too much power to do damage.
Let us put on the table ideas that will fix the heavy reliance of the mechanic without taking it completely out of the equation. It is handy at times when it is used along with attacks to get a village.
 

DeletedUser657

Guest
I'd like to see sabs be affected the same way attacks are effect. Meaning, if they don't have faith then it should lower the chance of success. If the morale is low then again it should affect the chance of success just like an attack. This will allow the sabs to be effective for the ones in teh same province but less so for those outside the province trying to overload the person with 500 sabs (I'm not exaggerating... 500+ sabs can be fairly common).
The real issue is not the 5-10 sabs a single individual will send but when you have 3 people with over 300 villages sending all their sabs at you, then you have no chance of defeating that. With the build times now being even worse for walls this has a huge impact on combat and recover from sabs.
Another option is to have the abilit to send spies from another village to help defend against sabs. As it is the ones in the village die very quickly. I'd like to see us be able to send spies in a defensive manner and have that effect the chance of success of the sab attack as long as there are spies in the village.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
For starters, I feel since a defending spies is limited to just spies in the city, while spying can be gangbang style, i feel the defense should be heavily slated to the defense side, for starters, 5 defending spies should never get successfully scouted, not even a red report, spies dying now certainly.
 

Tokano

Not a Mod
Thank you, Jade. It's been quite a while since I've been active on the forums.^^ I've missed everyone quite a lot.

In the interests of keeping this thread alive, here is how I would fix sabotage.

Firstly, I would set a limit per account as to how many sabotage missions can be sent at one time. This will scale with the amount of villages you have to keep the sabotage function relevant in mid to late game battles. For example players with 1 - 5 villages can sent 2 sabotage missions, players with 6 - 10 villages can send 4, players with 11 - 15 can send 8… You get the idea. For every 5 villages, you can send an additional two sabotage missions. This is something that can be worked out to a more exact mathematical equation later, obviously. The point here is just scaling.

This alone will cut the usage of sabotage by a considerable amount. It will not stop entire tribes from coordinating sabotage attacks, but it will eat into their overall numbers to limit the damage.

Secondly, I would tie a buff to the Order of the Teutonic Knights option in the HoO. This may seem like a very unusual place to add this buff, but I assure you it’s the right one when you consider the following: The Order of the Templar Knights gives you Zerkers, these beasts will shred through amazing amounts of units if you send the right combination of zerkers and rams. The Thieves Guild gives you sabotage which is immensely overpowered. The Order of the Teutonic Knights gives you trebuchets…Trebs while great for destroying incoming siege units are completely useless if you have no wall or farm from being sabo’d to death or if you’re being attacked from less than 5 spaces away. So because of their slow support movement and being rendered useless if your farm gets wrecked, add the sabo buff there.

I don’t believe this would change the balance of the game too drastically, however it will change the dynamic in which people break into provinces. Instead of coining a church and some spies, they’ll coin a church and the treb HoO.

Thirdly, if adding a buff to the treb HoO isn’t an option, surely adding a anti-sabotage buff to the church is. This could be a little more interesting in terms of how far we could make this go due to the different levels of the church. Church level 1, 10% buff to anti-sabo. Level 2, 20%, Level 3, 30%. This would apply to all your villages in your church’s influence and could not be stacked with another church to prevent people going to higher percentage buffs.

Finally, morale. Take morale into consideration when sending sabotage spies. I can’t tell you how many times I was asked on US1 while co-playing to attack someone and I would refuse because morale would kick my ass and I’d lose 30 nukes just clearing them. I would immediately refuse and say “I’ll send all my sabs at ‘em though” and with the amount of sabo villages my co-players and I had… The sabos would reduce their villages to almost nothing.

Those are just some of the ways I came up with in 15 minutes on how to fix the sabotage mechanic. They could be garbage or improved upon, but this is what you get from me at 4:30 in the morning.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Not sure if anything has changed in the past few days but that's when I got my first sabo villa and tried it out 3 times so far, 2 of those 3 were failed attempts and the one that was successful only knocked a few lvls off of a random building, so I don't see what all the complaining is about really, I mean if I could choose the building I wanted to target and there was a higher success rate that would be one thing but I don't see them as any great advantage with the way they have worked for me.

btw my 1st attempt I sent all 5 spies (this was the successful one) and the 2 fails were one with all 5 and one with only 3, for all attempts the target city had been cleared of spies as well
 

DeletedUser1460

Guest
Let me just say, you should try something more than once before drawing conclusions.

The complaints are coming from an out of balance mass spam attack that has no defense. I've seen some players get hit with hundreds of sabos in a row, even if they were on all day they wouldn't be able to build spies fast enough. The problem is really bad if the sabo cities are close. It gets cumbersome just trying to sort through all the reports.

The idea of sabos is to prevent these turtles. Here is several alternative ideas:
1. A change to the battle mechanics when the provisions in one city reach a certain amount, make the function linear instead of a square root. So stacking a city would be good to a point. After all,having too many people in one place would decrease their effectiveness.
2. a limit to the total provisions allowed in one city, this would be realistic since only so many troops could in a space
3. Increase in Zerks power and decrease in build time... if they attack a stack that is 4:1, then they attack at 4:1.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Sounds like the point u are missing is that (like u said) it takes multiple players, or at least a player with a lot of sabo villas, so how can u really be looking for 'balance' when the key to the game is good team work and trying to overwhelm ur opponent? The way I see it no matter what is done if ppl play the game as intended by working together as a tribe they will always have the advantage.. If u are looking for balance, how bout just finding a tribe that will help tip the scales in ur favor instead? lol

..trying to fight a war on ur own will always result in ur death (obviously, right?), sounds to me like its just a matter bringing some realism to the game instead of what u might be looking for is letting u be some sort of superman or rambo... this aint the movies kid!! lmao

..and what do u mean by turtles? ppl don't grow fast enough to give u a challenge? or the ones that go too slow to be a good tribemate? well u can't control everything so focus on what u can control, like finding a better tribe that kicks ppl like that or revise ur own strategies/tactics!
 

DeletedUser1460

Guest
Do you even play the game? A turtle is a huge stack of defense that takes many nukes wear down and one of the moderators stated that the proposed purpose of the sabo was as a counter measure to this.
You seem to talk as if you know me but nothing you said applies to me at all. Sabos are just a mass spam attack of the desperate and that would be fine, if they would just raise the power of the other two items in the HOO, (that means hall of orders). I'm going to unfollow this thread since it has been archived.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Turtle== player who just trains defense, sits all day dodging/sniping attacks and never attacks, they usually don't support and noble barbs.

I think with the new wall times, trebs got the boost they needed to be good, and Zerkers have always been good, just slow training time.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Do you even play the game? A turtle is a huge stack of defense that takes many nukes wear down and one of the moderators stated that the proposed purpose of the sabo was as a counter measure to this.
You seem to talk as if you know me but nothing you said applies to me at all. Sabos are just a mass spam attack of the desperate and that would be fine, if they would just raise the power of the other two items in the HOO, (that means hall of orders). I'm going to unfollow this thread since it has been archived.

I'll admit I am new to this game but I'm a gamer of all sorts so I'm only speaking on what makes sense to me from that perspective.. And common sense makes me ask u this.. How would anyone think that sabotaging random buildings would be an appropriate countermeasure for trying to blast through tons of support troops?

Now let me just say this again even though it seems so damn obvious to me, the game seems to be designed to make us work as a team to win! If u fail to realize this then good luck having an enjoyable experience here.. lmao
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I'm going to try to be polite. This isn't a teamwork issue. In most cases, there is little to nothing that your tribe can do to help you if you're the victim of these attacks. You seem to think being the victim of sabotage attacks means losing a level off a building here or there. Sabotage isn't an early or even that much of a mid game dynamic. It's used when players have 100+ villages. Lets say someone gets hit by 100 sabotage attacks overnight. Their defending spies get killed in the first 3-5 attacks. So 95 of those 100 have no spies defending against them. If you don't have homeguard, then they're pretty much guaranteed to be successful. That's 95 levels of buildings gone when you wake up to check what's happened. Unless you had a level 3 church, it's probably gone. Your walls are down by half. Your tavern is reduced so now you can't even build full complement of spies to defend against the next lot of incoming sabs. Farms down to 20 or less, so no ability to rebuild that church. You've already had your defensive ability reduced by around 60% (Faith has dropped to 50 and walls to 50, so you've gone from 200% to 75%). That's if the nukes land now, but really, most people will just keep it up till you're down to a starter village with 0 walls and left defending at 50%. Now you can either attack with 4 times as much power as before, or frankly, just ignore that little 100 point village with all the support left twiddling their thumbs and move on.

Now if you've got 20 or so nice sized villages in the province, that might not be a big deal (although still annoying as heck), but if you've just dropped a church to start an offensive, it's toast. If you're trying to defend and hold onto the last couple of villages in a province to fight back, they're toast. And what can your tribemates do to help? Very little. Sure they could send sabs of their own, but again targetting a random village from someone has little impact compared to a prime target like a church drop or heroic last stand.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Ok so here's my answer to that scenario then.. If they do all that to a village and still want to noble it (since the point is to take villas, right?) I'd just say fine (cuz, uh yeah, the point I'm at now is that any villa under 3k points aint even worth my time), let them have it and build it back up while I farm it and take it back again if/when they do manage to get it to a decent sized village again!! Muahahaaha :)


Now this part...
And what can your tribemates do to help? Very little.

..Umm, ur tribe can send support to the other villas so u have time to install a new church in one of them, wouldn't that be smart? What it really comes down to is thinking these things thru and keeping urself prepared for anything from the beginning. Good god, I feel like I'm giving away all my strategies here now! lol

..Futhermore, if I get to 100+ villas I would expect to lose some here and there, so can we just play the game as it is now and remind ourselves to have fun no matter win or lose? ;)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Also, plz remember this is a war game and there some things that just come along with that...

1. Losing tends to suck!
2. People will probably find things to do that will be just to annoy you.
3. ***Anything they can do to you, you can also do to them.***

***This is what makes the statement true that, 'all is FAIR in love and war' (games).. So now can we put this to bed that sabo's are unbalanced or unfair?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Turtle== player who just trains defense, sits all day dodging/sniping attacks and never attacks, they usually don't support and noble barbs.
What's so wrong with that? all but the part about nobling barbs sounds like a good player to me. They kill the enemies OT so the rest of the tribe has less to worry about. In many cases I don't even like to send support either cuz so many ppl fail to follow the simple instructions about giving all the details we need. Why do so many players in this game act like playing good defense is cheating or wrong in some other way? Isn't the whole point of war games to have good offensive AND defensive tactics?
 
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