Balance Update II

jpex20

Berserker
Please utilize this thread to discuss Balance Update II. For more information or to view the update notes click HERE.
 

kndea

Axeman
So I'm going to start by saying that I'm very skeptical of these changes. It will drastically change gameplay on several levels and seems as though it has a heavy penalty to players already playing in established worlds. I do have a few questions:

1) "Building and recruitment times have been adjusted and are now easier to read". Do we have a table for adjusted recruitment times?
2) Given that sabotage is having its efficiency greatly reduced, will players that already have Thieves Guild hall of orders be given an option to change orders without the high cost? It would seem somewhat unfair to change a factor like that so significantly on something players have already selected and not allow players a free pass to change their selection. Maybe reset halls on update?
3) If the chapel time is essentially unaffected given the new HQ "Finish for Free" option, could we instead just leave the chapel as it was? The only difference this would seem to make is (1) how fast can you move your mouse and (2) how laggy is your connection.

I do really like that the sabotage balancing features. I also like the hospital bed increase and rally point increase. These will make these buildings a higher priority, for me at least.

Overall, a lot of updates that I think only time will tell how they go.
 

kndea

Axeman
Also, will we have the option of re-choosing tribe skills for free as well? This update seems to affect the "Additional Beds" skill with the hospital change, the "Walking speed" skill with rally point changes, "Better spy defense" is affected by the modification of the sabotage system, "High wall-level" is affected by drastic change in build times for wall. It would again seem fair if the option to reset skills without the usual penalty is given since this was an unforeseen modification to the base system and may change how some tribes would spend their skills.
 

shontsoo

Guest
Just to be clear:
All Spies will now be twice as fast when spying another village, however they will be only half as fast in reaching their destination when on a Sabotage mission as previously.
half as fast as they currently are, or half as fast as spying will be (i.e., same speed they are now)?
 

giantsfrey

Guest
I posted this in another forum, but I guess it should be here also:
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  1. In our balancing update thread posted by admins on the forums, the chart for building times lists, for example, that it takes 36 hours to build a lvl 20 wall... but the chart says these are based on lvl 20 hq's. with the new balance, i have a lvl 30 hq that takes 36 hrs to build a lvl 20 wall. what gives? shouldn't it be faster? is it even slower at lvl 20 hq? is the chart mislabeled?
  2. The update thread also says that tier 5 spy will take 3 hours. my tier 5 spies build at 6 hours, with lvl 15 tavern. is the game errored, or is the chart simply incorrect? there seem to be a lot of errors. what's the point of telling us the changes ahead of time if they end up being random and unexpected anyways??

    as a side note, what's the reasoning for reducing the clay/wood cost of spies a ton, but hardly reducing iron? it now costs more iron than clay or wood to make a tier 5 spy. are the slippery little ninjas now laden with 200 lbs of plate armor or something?! the bug fixes are always helpful, but this balancing crap just screws everything up again, in my opinion. spies were nerfed in previous updates because sabos were too strong. now they're way cheaper and build way faster. why did we decide to make sabos stronger again??
 

kndea

Axeman
Having now experienced the patch, I am strongly disliking the doubled church building time. It makes defeating a turtled player even more challenging. There are quite a few players that I'm facing that will take up every single village in their province. It is now almost impossible to noble into their province for a church village since they can so easily take out that village with no faith before church is up.
Although I like the spy / sabotage updates, the changes in building times here simply seem to favor crown purchasers (it really feels like a "Different, but not better" update.
 

Master Prefector

Guest
Cool! My only concern is I like that it takes time to build up the Barracks. Considering there are only a handful of different units in the game, it adds a bit of depth to have such a long barracks building time. It kinda adds value to the Barracks and makes you choose your unit builds carefully.

Now we are going to have experienced players dominating newbies by quickly building the Barracks up while the newbie is till feeling the game out.
 

tassies1

Spearman
These changes balance the game more towards two groups of players; those who use coins to buy key buildings (eg a Church), and those who move their chapel around.
There needs to be an advantage for coins, but it is now too big of a gap. This really show itself at the start of a world, the coin players dominate excessively. I've also seen churches get continually rebuilt in seconds by both attackers and defenders. Makes it very hard for those playing without coins.
The chapel problem has not been addressed at all. Maybe the chapel should be staying put if you take your own village or be limited to just your starting province.
 

Management

Berserker
This "balancing update" was clearly designed to make players have to spend crowns in order to compete. I am quite displeased with the direction Inno is taking this game, and I predict many will leave because of this. The pay to win aspect of this game has just gotten out of control.
 

Boomerang

Spearman
I hope your whales spend enough to make up for the loss of casual spenders you will lose due to this update. Constant spending will be the only way to stay competitive.
 

Zeshinosa

Spearman
I feel this update the numbers weren't run properly and changes game to much to benefit crowners. One place this is the case is buildings and nobles/coins use to be the sink for clay and units used a bit more iron and wood. Now with new faster queues and change in buildings the balance is off a little. Clay is in abundance now would be nice to see this balanced.

- New Rally Point is great in concept but what it does is makes it so the micro farmers who can sit on the game all day are able to put their farm pressure on province 3.5 time further out then they use to thus hurting more people in farming barbs. What is nice is it allows those that can't make it on much to get their farming runs back faster (but will have less now due to more people farming those barbs from further away).

- I'm not opposed to the new build times but with them rams and catapults are very over powered early on now I feel. With Treb's hard to get unless you get a coin offer early on there is no counter to Rams or Cat's early on. Then if you happen to have lvl 20 wall already and took the time to get it can be lost so easy with no counter. Maybe an increase in HP on the longer build time buildings or some kind of balance here would be good.

- Maybe the HQ instant build time reduction goes up in later lvls as 30 seconds after lvl 10 seems kind of point less maybe 60 seconds lvl 10-20 and 5 minutes lvl 21-30? That also would require some attention but seems the later are pointless but could be used as beneficial.

This is all coming from point of view of a newer world so may be different story with later in the world but it very much changes early game to alienate the more casual players and non crowners even more than they were before.
 

giantsfrey

Guest
Well, moving the chapel is free. that's the best alternative to the slow church build. and yes, Innogames clearly saw that the only things people spend crowns on are Churches and Walls. so they're attempting to increase profit from that, while making less critical buildings faster/cheaper, to 'offset' it. i'm not a fan of it, but business is business. if we don't like it, we can quit, or pay less, and let them find their mistakes. there are plenty of other problems with the update that they may manage more proactively, though, such as:

"I'm also seeing that provisions have been altered. For instance, I have a village with 0 available provisions. i sent a ram-fake, and the ram dies. i should have 5 spare provisions, right? well on the 3 vills i've done this with, i have 17 provisions, 216 provisions, and 312 new provisions available. i assume the attack landing triggers an update to the changed provisions. but why have provisions changed??"
 

Zeshinosa

Spearman
I think the building provision requirements changed to make buildings like resource production easier to get.
 

serendipity

Spearman
I dislike the time for wall to get back up, it is way too long. making this game a game all about offense since u can build up decent ram count in 1-2 days and take down the wall while walls take more then 4 days to recover
and the 350% speed for raiding barbs really makes people who spends all day in front of computer a huge advantage.
the increase in res to upgrade barrack was also not told to us in the update, the great increase of res reallly put people who didnt upgrade it before into disadvantage
due to all the changes i feel like all tribes should get a chance to change their skills

Only thing i liked about the new update is the increase in speed of training troops which allows player to train troops faster and have more fun .... but thats about it
 

Deathcrystal

Guest
These changes balance the game more towards two groups of players; those who use coins to buy key buildings (eg a Church), and those who move their chapel around.
There needs to be an advantage for coins, but it is now too big of a gap. This really show itself at the start of a world, the coin players dominate excessively. I've also seen churches get continually rebuilt in seconds by both attackers and defenders. Makes it very hard for those playing without coins.
The chapel problem has not been addressed at all. Maybe the chapel should be staying put if you take your own village or be limited to just your starting province.
Crowners are too op remove the free church?? HUH?

Additionally, i am confused all in all, you mention often how you(devs + mods) thought some buildings werent worth long waits... and lowered the changed rate.... you do realize in some cases the change rate is still much longer than the orginal rate and your comments don't make sense XD

Additionally, walls are little too long now, a day for some levels?
 

kndea

Axeman
A more informed review (after time to try it out): Overall bad.
Spies:
Players have been complaining about the sabotage feature and how it's been too powerful in the past. They've suggesting removing it, reducing its efficiency, etc. This patch on first glance seems to reduce its efficacy, but in actually playing, makes the feature more powerful than before. With recruitment times decreased significantly, players are able to send 4-5 spies from all of their villages and rebuild all of them within around 10 hours. I have personally seen an INCREASE in sab usage since the patch due to this.

Building Times:
This patch claimed to increase building times to hurt turling players. However, the opposite effect seems to have occurred. Since wall times and church times were effectively doubled, it is now exponentially harder to noble into an enemy province and build a church to attack in-province. Yes, this prevents it from happening overnight for a player, but it also greatly reduces the ability to take out a player that's bunkered down in a province.

Fixes:
I would like to see the wall and church build time returned to their original values. Although some players may be unhappy with going back, I haven't run into a player happy about the changes so far. In fact, I'm still running into people (what, a week later?) that think their game is bugged with build-times and keep restarting to try to fix the issue. As for spies, there have been dozens of suggestions on the EN and US forums to fix their usage in this game. You KNOW something is wrong with them when a number of tribes make an agreement with others specifically not to use them (players adding personal rules since the game is unbalanced in that area).

Thanks.
 

jpex20

Berserker
Thank you all for the feedback on this issue. Unfortunately, as is the case with many large updates like this, it has its fair share of "flaws". We will definitely voice some of your concerns over to our developers, for them to look at. The Balance Update was supposed to bring a more dynamic aspect to the game. In some areas it has, and, according to all of you, in some areas it has not. Maybe move some of your ideas to the suggestions section, that way it makes it easier for us to pick out more popular dislikes, so that we can forward them.

Again, thank you all for you feedback!